design team copyright question?

[lemon]

I am currently running a design team call up. I have asked for original layouts so that I can properly assess the amount of work in the completed pieces submitted. I think it is pretty hard to tell the extent of someone's efforts from a photo even in a magazine, let alone on a computer screen. And I want to give everyone a fair chance.
Also, I have asked for a brief step by step of how the project is achieved. Again this is so I can give a fair verdict on the work of everyone who enters. I regularly run competitions at my B&M shop like this and the chances are that through the instructions I discover that someone has created something in such a way that if I hadn't had these instructions I would have just thought that they had bought it and stuck it on!
I hope this explains it from a judge's point of view. It is such a hard job to fully appreciate the best work out their from such a talented bunch of entries. You need all the help you can get. I can assure you that we don't intend to steel ideas or layouts - just judge fairly. Hope that answers your query.

on your website it states

All three pieces should be accompanied by a step-by-step description of how you created your work, what techniques you used and what products you used. This is important, as you may be asked to do this with any projects you submit to Crafty-Ness as a Design Team member, so that they can be used in classes.

this is the section that concerns me

[crafty-ness]

Basically, I would like to be able to call on my design team, when things are busy to use projects for classes but as I also said on the website, full credit will always be given to those who do the work. Of course this will always be discussed with the creative concerned because I will also know what sort of techniques and products I would like the class to be about. Class planning is not a random thing, you can't just pick up a nice layout and say "we'll do that today". You need to be aware of what regular customers already know so you don't repeat techniques all the time, introduce new ideas etc etc. So it would be with full knowledge, discussion and agreement by the creative as it happens, so that the class can be planned accordingly.

I hope this explains where I'm coming from. Ultimately, a design team is there to inspire others to use and buy product from a store, that is being given to the designer. The stores have to justify giving away all that free product, LOL! You are not giving away your right to say you created it first...just a right to say I created it but I'm happy for you to learn from my talent and I want to inspire you!
I personally get such a thrill from inspiring others with a new technique, page element, titling idea or whatever. However, if you are uncomfortable with that sort of situation, maybe being on a design team isn't for you.

[NattieG]

I know this is slightly off the original topic - but the whole "fingers across the LO" debate has caught my interest! I haven't got a posh editing package like photoshop, all I have is a plain old free version of arcsoft, but, I do love it to bits, and I know that given ten minutes, I could easily create a picture Like SI did for Janice - even if her fingers had actually been across part of the LO. As someone has already said, it really is easy if you know how and doesn't take very much time or effort.

For this reason, and those outlined by Ness such as looking at the detail and craftmanship of a piece of work, I can't blame judges for requesting to see your entries "in real life"

[lemon]

However, if you are uncomfortable with that sort of situation, maybe being on a design team isn't for you.

i think you are right........this desgn team is not for me.....i think if somebody was teaching my designs in a class and they were getting paid for it i would be extremely grieved ......even if they did supply the goods.

[allyf]

It is easy to change photos - we had a group photo taken at work one year and a couple of people werent there on the day and they were added on after. One of the added ons stood with his hand behind him instead of clasped in front so that was no good. The photographic dept chopped off his arms and stuck on one of the other chaps (they were both in the same uniform) and you would never know unless it was pointed out that they both had the same hands!
:-)

[katrina]

i think if somebody was teaching my designs in a class and they were getting paid for it i would be extremely grieved ......even if they did supply the goods.

As somebody who will be looking for my own design team in the future, this is a very interesting thread, and viewpoint.
I would've thought that as long as an agreement has been made and it is understood that the credit goes to the designer, not the tutor, this would not be OK but maybe I'm wrong.
As I understand it the design team members get products sent to them to make up layouts, which are then sent(electronically or otherwise) to the shop, so that it gives inspiration to other scrappers.
I would assume the ultimate aim of this is to sell more of the products used. Is there that much of a difference between the shop owner making money on the goods sold, as a result of the design team members contribution, and from a class, again as a result of the design team members contribution.
I also understand that alot of shops who have design team members offer generous discounts on goods purchased. Isn't this a sort of payment for your services.
I am not having a go at Lemon, but as I have said it is a very interesting viewpoint, I would appreciate other potential design team members views on this.

[erisindevon]

I'm a DT member, and while the retailers I work for don't teach classes from my work, I don't see a huge difference between that and publishing them on a website/in a kit booklet for all and sundry to be 'inspired by'. I expect my designs to be used by those who by the products - probably just for ideas, but quite possibly to be scraplifted brad for brad If these shops did want to use my designs for a class, with my agreement and proper credit, that would be fine with me. Perhaps if I was in a position to teach my own classes I would feel differently, but I don't, so it's not a big deal to me.

Just my tuppence worth

[katrina]

Re reading the original post(would help ) I understand that the initial problem would come about if you were NOT chosen for the design team. I would assume that if that were the case then all bets were off as it were. I certainly wouldn't expect to use a LO for a class, or even ask the unsuccessful designer IF I could use it. In that instance I would certainly expect that person to be grieved if the shop went on to make money from their unsuccessful attempt.

[greyparrot]

surely though the 'cost' of the goods being sent to you kinda outweighs the benefits of having those goods when you have to send the layouts off? 1- you aren't getting to keep your layout and therefore the goods and 2- you are having to pay postage (I know when I send them to mags it is always around a fiver as I will only use SD-it is the only way to ensure safe delivery). So I would personally feel like I was losing out big time. At least when I send them into mags I get paid for it so the fee I get paid includes the postage.
Also, those who are asking for physical layouts during the 'audition' phase, what happens then? No agreement is in place at that point, and you have paid postage still with nothing to show for it? Are they returned? Those are genuine questions, I have never 'auditioned' for a design team so have no idea!

[yizzard]

IMO (and I have never gone in for a DT comp) I think that getting stash to design a LO to inspire others is completly different from designing a class. A DT LO for inspiration is basically an advert and you would be agreeing to a fee of whatever stash for allowing your creation to be that advert for the suff being sold in the shop. Hopefully the shop will benefit by selling a bit more and making a bit of profit and the designer will gain some stash in payment for the design (although as greyparrot says above in this particular case, where jpegs are not allowed I cant see what the designer will gain). Usually it is just for inspiration.

However a class will generate much more money as presumably those taking the class will not only have to pay for the kit but also the fee for the class. I would expect a bit more in return for designing a class, especially if I had got to take the time to write down a step by step instruction sheet of every technique I used along the way.

[wickedcaz]

I think it is up to the individual shop owner to decide what they want from their design team and of course the individual has to be happy with the T&Cs.

If they (shops) send stash for paper LOs in return but offer a huge discount in the shop to the DT members, is there really any benefit to those DT members? In my opinion not really.

If they send stash for .jpeg LOs in return and the ODD individual LO to be taught at a class, then again the individual applying for the DT has to be happy with that. I would want my LOs returned when the class was over.

As far as sending LOs in, I am often very dissapointed in the quality of my 12x12 LO .jpegs as I have to photograph rather than scan, they don't look 'at their best'. So to see them all in the best light requesting them is often beneficial BUT if you can't send a decent audion LO in what chance have you got sending decent DT work in.

And as far as using DT LOs for classes again that is for the individual applying for the team to agree or disagree. Is it a bit cheeky of the shop owners to make money out of your designs? Maybe

I guess it's a discussion that could go on forever!

[JudiP]

I think this is a tricky situation. We have store owners who are trying to make a living by using some talented people's work to promote their products but we also have talented people trying to make a living.

All of us who create scrapbook pages, albums and all the little things that we do, need to start thinking of ourselves as Artists, not hobbyists. Therefore we should be treated as such. Ultimately, we retain copyright for everything we create until a contract changes that. If you take a look at your Contract of Employment that you have with whomever you work for at the moment, you will probably find a clause in there somewhere that states that anything you write or create is theirs for as long as you work for them. One of the ones I had stated that this included anything that I wrote (about computing) in my spare time also belonged to them.

If there's no signed contract, then the copyright it yours and yours alone. So, if you've submitted actual work for a DT submission (I refuse to call it a competition because it is actually an application for a job) and you fail to get into the DT, then the copyright on the work is still yours - unless the T&Cs of the submission process states that all submissions will be retained by the DT runner, for future use. If it states this, then I think they're being a little cheeky.

With regards to payment for layouts, this is another tricky one. Most stores cannot afford to pay their DT members much and I understand this. However, if I were doing it, I would want to know for what purpose they wanted the item and I would want to be paid accordingly. Perhaps this is why I haven't applied for any DTs yet. Remember that minimum wage is £5.05 per hour in this country and you should be paid at least that.

Classes are a whole different ball game. I would be upset if someone used my work as the basis for a class without giving me credit if they were replicating it brad for brad. But I've been in classes where the designer has been given credit verbally but I can almost guarantee that they haven't been paid. Class planning is different. The projects that I create for classes are considerably different from the projects I create for magazines and for myself. They need to incorporate a technique, rather than just be something that looks good and will (hopefully) inspire. However, if you've been asked to design the class around that layout (even if you won't ultimately teach it) you should get some payment for it.

Think about it in terms of the Fine Art world. You would go to gaol if you were to "scraplift" a Picasso and try to pass it off as a Picasso. Also, if you see something in a gallery that you'd like to hang on your wall, you'd pay a price for it, don't you?

Ultimately, it comes down to those lovely T&Cs and is up to the negotiation agreement between DT owner and DT member. Everything is negotiable. Everything.

For myself, I create pages, projects and pieces for my own enjoyment and don't expect to get paid. However, if I'm making it for someone else, I do expect to get paid and it has to be a living wage. That is why I won't submit to a magazine who won't pay. But, because I teach classes, I often create samples for those classes for the store owner for free. This is because I get paid for teaching the classes.

One place approached me recently to do demonstrations in their shops. They offered £9 per hour. I had to get myself there, and provide food and drink for myself for the whole day. I politely told them how much I was prepared to demo for them for (per hour) and we are still negotiating.

To reiterate: we need to start thinking of ourselves as professionals, not just hobbyists.

Hugs and scrapping
Judi

[scoobiesue]

The easiest way to prove copyright is to take photos of your LO's, put the photos in an envelope and post them to yourself Recorded Delivery, when you receive them back don't open the envelope - the Recorded Delivery slip will prove the date you sent them (good idea to write on the envelope which LO photos it contains.
Someone taking money from customers for classes should think up their own ideas or make sure the original designer is credited, scrapping is quite a small community and word would soon get round that designs had been nicked, I think you would have to ask yourself is it worth your good name and reputation? It would only take one customer to post a LO on the gallery here and for the original designer to recognise it for the truth to come out.

[wickedcaz]

If you take photos with a digi cam the date will be in the properties too...

[bumpybecky]

yes but you can fake the date by changing the date on the digi cam! I've got loads of pics taken in 2008 cos I made a mistake when i first set my camera up